In this episode of the Watermark Search International Agile Leadership Lessons podcast, host Donna Burr dives into the world of career coaching for executives.
Joined by Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and host of The Job Hunting Podcast, and Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books and Non-Executive Director at the Women’s Circus, this episode demystifies career coaching and its pivotal role in executive job searches and leadership transitions.
Renata and Peta share their insights on why leaders often struggle with job searches and transitions, the unique value of career coaching, and how it differs from other forms of professional development. Through real-life experiences and practical advice, listeners will learn how career coaching can help them navigate their career paths, overcome stagnation, and develop leadership agility.
Whether you're in a career rut or considering professional development options, this episode offers valuable takeaways to help you move forward with confidence.
Listen to gain insights and advice for current and future leaders.
You can also find the podcast on several different apps, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Breaker, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, and RadioPublic. Click here to listen & subscribe on your favourite app or read the transcript below.
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Demystifying Career Coaching in Your Executive Job Search and Through Pivotal Leadership Transitions
Agile Leadership Lessons, Episode 11, transcript:
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Welcome to the Watermark Search International Agile Leadership Lessons podcast. My name is Donna Burr and I'll be your host today. I'm a Partner in our Interim Executive practice, and if this is your first time, thank you for joining us.
The Watermark team is made up of dedicated partners who have a long expertise in Board, Executive and Interim Executive appointments. Our podcast invites highly regarded leaders in to share their knowledge and expertise of agile leadership, spanning public, private, and not-for-profit settings. We ask them how they navigate different leadership challenges and their key lessons.
Today we are exploring career coaching for executives. We will be demystifying what career coaching is, misconceptions, identifying when you might need one, and hearing some interesting anecdotes and how career coaching has helped critical leadership transitions for one of our guest speakers. If you are in a career rut as a leader, sitting on the fence about seeking help or indeed not sure where to start, today's conversation should fill you with some practical insight and a path forward.
So I'm really excited to welcome two guests on the virtual couch with me today. Firstly, a well-known friend to Watermark and our community, Renata Bernarde, career coach and host of The Job Hunting Podcast. Renata, welcome back and great to have you here.
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Thank you.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
And a new friend to Watermark, Peta Granger. Peta is the Commercial Director at QBD books, Non-Executive Director at the Women's Circus, and past leadership roles include iconic retailers such as Lush and Koko Black. Welcome, Peta. Really delighted to have you here.
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Peta: Thank you so much, Donna and Renata.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Now, Renata, we might start with you. In my years of working with you, I've come to understand your superpower sits squarely in the court of the executive job seeker as their champion, as their cheerleader, and their supporter. Can you please tell our listeners how you found yourself as a career coach?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
I have a very fun story because I've always known I wanted to be a career coach, dating back to the seventies.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Really?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
I was nine, 10 years old and we had a friend of the family who was a career counsellor, career coach. She also had an executive career and worked for a big organisation before she became a coach, and I adored her.
I adored her, and she was the first person that did strengths assessment tests with me several times. And BTI at the time was very popular and she had several talks with me about what I was going to do at uni. And then when I dropped out of uni she was at home and she gave me lots of tips and ideas.
And throughout my career, I've always had great mentors and great coaches. So I've envisioned myself much later on, maybe in my mid-sixties, doing what my friend Josie did. And what happened was, I brought that dream much earlier than I thought I was going to do it. My role was made redundant in the corporate world and I decided why not give this a go?
And if it doesn't work, I'll go back. I felt like I was young enough to give career coaching a very good go for let's say three years. And if it didn't work, I would go back. But it worked really well. One of the things that I think is great in terms of the coaching that I do is that I am fascinated by the emotional side of job loss and transition. And my thesis was in positive psychology, so I had all of that background in how to help people deal with grief, how to help people elevate their mindset and, feedback that I could provide to them about confidence, courage, grit, self-actualisation, and also my lived experience.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah.
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Moving countries, changing careers, and failing at job interviews and being tapped on the shoulder for other opportunities. And I felt like I could compress all of that into a framework and offer it to other professionals going through the same thing.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Thank you, Renata, I can't wait to unpack some more of that in a little bit more detail. Firstly, Peta, welcome again to you. What an exciting leadership journey you've been on. Can you share a bit about your career and what has led you to seek development through career coaching?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Yeah. Thanks so much Donna. It really is lovely to be here. I guess you could say my career path has been a bit old school in that I stayed with the one employer for more than 20 years.
I started at the cosmetic retailer, Lush, as a Christmas Sales Assistant in Dublin while I was backpacking around Europe and what was meant to be three months turned into three years managing one of their Dublin stores. And from there I spent the next 17 years working really closely with the founders on global expansion and comms and engagement and strategy and just the whole huge global growth trajectory of the brand.
I was lucky enough to be sent to more than 45 different countries over that time and for the last decade I moved back to Australia to lead the Australian Lush business here through a huge turnaround from very heavy losses into a really strong, profitable brand. But it was really on maternity leave that I clicked over 20 years with Lush, I turned 40, and it felt just like a real crossroad. Stay with the brand I love or try something new.
And I think it was the perspective of maternity leave and wrapping things up in a nice little bow. My team were ready. My job felt done, and I think I'll always be an advocate for Lush, the ethics and the values are real and inspiring, and the opportunities and the experiences, completely shaped who I am. But it was definitely time to just challenge myself with something new.
But it was only once I was out of a job that I realised how much of my identity and confidence was tied into having one. A team, a tribe, and I felt like I didn't just wrap up a job, I felt like I lost a bit of my community.
I'd never had to look for an executive job before. And I very quickly realised that I was a bit lost and just not so great at it. And that's what led me to look for a career coach. I could see that I really needed some help, understanding my value and really just exploring what was possible beyond the world of Lush that I'd known for so long.
And I should probably disclose that it was Renata that I reached out to and she became my career coach.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
I think Peta, there'll be many listening to this who can relate to many similar moments that you've experienced on your career journey. So I'm really keen that we dive a bit deeper into some of those moments shortly.
Renata, back to you just for a bit of scene setting. In your experience as a career coach, what are some of the biggest struggles leaders face today in both their executive job search and through key leadership transitions? And in particular, why do so many leaders feel stuck in their career and job search even when they have great experience and qualifications?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Yes. What Peta described is so true. High performing professionals are often not used to feeling lost. Feeling uncertain about their careers, right? Because they have been time and time again successful in their endeavours professionally. So the job search can be a very humbling experience. There's an emotional toll of leaving a job that you've stayed for a long time that I think hits even harder for those people that have similar experiences to Peta.
So there's that stress of transition and all of a sudden it activates something that is quite intuitive for us, which is a fight, flight, freeze response. So we shut down, we avoid communicating it with others, we don't want people to know what's going on, we get overwhelmed by the amount of things we need to do in order to job search and be interviewed and apply for jobs.
And like Peta described, leadership identity is tied to job titles for most corporate professionals. So it's really a matter of re-educating yourself to feel confident being an excellent professional without that tie to an employer. But most importantly, I think many people lack that strategy on how to job search proactively instead of reactively.
And that leads to a lot of frustration. So not knowing how to build a framework for yourself and how the job hunting competition actually works. And the sort of tasks that you need to do. Sometimes you have to stagger those tasks all on one on top of the other and prioritising them. That's why I think coaching can really help deal with all of those different holistic elements of the job search.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, I think really complex to remain objective when it's yourself who's the study and you've got an emotional attachment to the outcome. Peta, before you were working with a career coach, what challenges were you facing in your job search that sort of lead you down that path?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Yeah, there were so many challenges. First, I hadn't written a CV in a very long time. My LinkedIn profile didn't say anything other than Lush 20 years. I was also just pretty unsure of how to present myself and going through, as Renata described, like a real crisis of confidence.
It felt like a rug had just been totally pulled from under me. After that long, I really didn't know who I was outside of Lush or even where to start. I knew I wasn't ready to jump into another big role straight away, but I wanted to start working towards something. I'd never really worried about my lack of formal education until I didn't have a job. And then to me it felt like a gaping hole on my resume.
So I did the CDC, the Company Directors Course. I started an MBA in Change Management and eventually I started job hunting. But my first few attempts were pretty awful. I think I just wasn't making great decisions. I applied for a few jobs that didn't really excite me or just weren't a great fit, and I was really struggling to articulate and pitch myself.
And it really wasn't until I started working with Renata that I realised I was going about it all wrong. I really did need some help first. Unpacking my career narrative, building confidence back up, getting clear on what I loved and what I wanted to do more of. And then understanding the job market from a really different lens than the one I'd been used to as a recruiter when I was building my own teams in the past.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Okay. Renata, I think now's a really good time to deep dive now into what career coaching is. I think many people fully don't actually understand what it is. Can you break down what career coaches do and how they differ from executive coaching, leadership coaching, lifestyle coaching, and I guess something that I'm passionate about, which we'll start exploring, is the role that sort of career coaches will play versus, say, an executive recruiter.
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
That's a very good question, and I think it will be very well received by the audience. So let's start with career coaching. So career coaching is a great investment if you feel like you're lacking direction or strategy in your career. In my case, I work with clients over 40, and they're usually in some sort of midlife crisis in their career. So have they achieved everything that they wanted to achieve in their forties and fifties or sometimes sixties? Are there any sort of new career paths that they want to pursue or advancement that they feel like they really want to invest in right now?
We also look at how to job search now versus five, ten years ago. Personal branding with an updated resume and a LinkedIn profile that is optimised for search engines to find you. And the new type of networking that we do today is different from networking pre pandemic. The interviewing today and the whole understanding that we now have about how to perform well in those high pressured environments like a job interview, we're much more advanced into that.
So career coaching can help with all of these things from career planning and design to tactical ways of getting a job and being successful in recruitment and selection. Then you have executive coaching. I actually do some of that when clients of mine graduate and get a job, but they still want to onboard well into their new organisation.
So executive coaching will be more focused on enhancing your performance in your current role. Making sure that you are getting along well with your team and with your coworkers and your managers. Deal with any conflict and miscommunications that you have in your current role.
Then we have leadership coaching. Now leadership coaching is for those who have stepped up or are already in leadership roles, and they feel like they need to build up long-term leadership skills like influence, like resiliency, like strategic thinking. Anything that might be a gap in their overall holistic leadership competencies that they might need coaching for.
Then we also have life coaching. So that's broader, it's about life satisfaction, it's about purpose, and it's more across different areas. However, they all come from the same DNA. We discuss similar things, like confidence, and courage and grit and your strengths and your values and your purpose.
So that is a commonality. There are probably things that will overflow from career coaching into your life. Things that we are going to discuss about the way that you communicate with others, for example, or present yourself that might overflow into the way that you work and you live your life.
Now when choosing a career coach, it's about navigating this transition faster. And we might go a little bit deeper into that, Donna, as to why you would do it instead of just doing it by yourself. But I guess this kind of explains the different types of coaching and when you would invest in them if you feel you need them.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah. Thank you, Renata, I think that's really helpful to hear those definitions and absolutely understand there's the overlap in the DNA. But I think when people are trying to reflect on where they are and what help they might be seeking, I think that helped give some words around the different types of coaching.
Peta, you've worked with both a career coach and a leadership coach. How did those experiences differ and what unique benefits did that provide for you?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Thanks, Donna. Yeah, great question because they are really different. I would say, look, at the end of the day, career coaching was absolutely game changing for me. Not just for job hunting, but overall career transition and how I managed my ongoing career for the next 30 years.
Initially Renata helped me build a very strong narrative. Really refine my story, get clear on my values and very practically just completely overhaul my LinkedIn and my CV. But it was also just incredibly tactical, with networking strategies, how to show up at events, what to say in interviews.
And actually the interview prep was phenomenal. I really bombed out on my first few interviews before working with Renata. And I would've called myself a strong recruiter, but when the chairs were switched I was just in a real muddle before learning some really practical techniques. Not just to prepare, but to really impress. I think Renata really helped me become not just more confident, but truly feel more capable in a space of real vulnerability. Because that's what, job hunting is. She kind of empowered me with a process that I still continue to use. It wasn't about becoming reliant on her. It was a really empowering process.
Whereas leadership coaching came later, once I'd landed in each new leadership role. That work focuses more on how I show up as a leader, how I perform navigating difficult decisions or difficult people. My leadership coach is someone I bounce strategy off or debate team dynamics and decision making with. Career coaching helped me land the right job, whereas leadership coaching helps me lead powerfully once I'm there.
And I just want to do a quick shout out to my phenomenal leadership coach of more than a decade, James Cumming. He's just wonderful.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Oh, that's wonderful. Lovely to hear the shout out. And you've both just made me reflect when I think about my role as an executive recruiter and something that you've both said around having the narrative, so what is the narrative of you that you are taking to market and being clear and crisp about that. I can certainly say in my role when I meet a number of candidates, those who have invested the time through career coaching to really reflect on what's next, what their superpowers are, as we would refer to them, and have a really crisp narrative around what they're seeking, what value they can add, absolutely, will be the ones who get that opportunity to shortlist for the interview. I feel that people who do that work up front typically will end up being more successful when they're meeting executive recruiters and other, channels to market. Being really clear and tied on, that's a game changer.
And Renata, if I just explore that a bit more. How does somebody know if they need a career coach? We gave the definitions of the different type of coaching, but if I'm there sitting and thinking, do I engage a career coach? What are some of the specific signs that you see that indicate coaching could be beneficial to an executive?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Yes, so I think the most important thing is to again, focus on that emotional exhaustion of the job search . If you have reached the point where you are stuck and unsure and exhausted by it. It's really, really important to invest in coaching and mentoring with someone that has strong expertise in recruitment and selection in 2025 and beyond.
Not somebody that had expertise 10 years ago. So I think that this is really important because you don't want to receive lots of advice that are out of date. Because that can be really confusing for professionals jobs seeking right now. And then you can evaluate how are you articulating your value?
You've just mentioned before, Donna, the importance of narrative. There are some key questions that if you are struggling to answer them, it would be beneficial for you to work with a coach. Questions such as, tell me about yourself? Why do you want this job? Why did you leave your last job? What is your leadership style? What are your weaknesses? If you don't have clear, crisp, very robust answers to all of these questions I just mentioned, it's probably a great idea to work with a coach. But mainly, are you getting traction?
In my podcast, The Job Hunting Podcast, I always talk about conversion. So it's really funny when people come to me and they use my language, "Oh, I'm not converting." But basically, if you're applying for jobs and you're not getting interviews, and these are jobs that you can do, then there's something really technical to do with the way that you are sending out your job application that we can work on.
Or if you're going for interviews for jobs that you know you can do and you're not progressing, then there's something really technical about how you're presenting yourself in job interviews that we might be able to help you get unstuck.
But, I think mainly you shouldn't need to feel like you need to do this by yourself. I think that it's this thing about you feeling like you need to do this by yourself and alone is rooted in shame and it's rooted in perfectionism. And the fact is that coaching and talking to people and going out and networking and getting advice can really fast track your results.
It's a very big misconception that only people who are struggling reach out for coaching. People that reach out for coaching are usually very smart. All of my clients are extremely capable and high performing. They just don't know how to go through recruitment and selection because they don't have to do it all the time. You might have to do it every few years, and that's it. So why not get somebody with that expertise to support you during that transition?
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
I am listening to you Renata, and I'm feeling and hearing the words, hope. You just provide such a pragmatic lens around that, this is something quite pragmatic and practical that you can get help for and progress and you don't need to be living in this world of, as you say, shame's a really strong emotion but yeah. I'm hearing the word hope.
Peta, how did career coaching help you navigate your job search and career decisions? And are there any sort of ‘aha’ moments along the way that you can share with us?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Look, so many ‘aha’ moments, and there's a few that really stick with me. One was when Renata told me you are not ready to speak to recruiters yet. Because when you do, you need to really impress them, not ask them for advice.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Love that. Thank you.
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
And that, I mean that totally flipped the way I thought about job hunting. I'd also spent my career building up other people, selling a product, pitching a brand, but just not selling myself. So I had to first slow down a little and learn how to pitch my story more powerfully.
Another big one was around LinkedIn. I thought I had to be posting constantly, but Renata shifted my thinking. She got me to focus on engaging with others. Leaders at companies I admired, liking their posts and commenting.
By doing that, you're tapping into their endorphin rush and building connection in just a more strategic way. It's more memorable for the person that you admire. And it works. It actually led to some great conversations and connections.
Renata also pushed me to stay really visible across the retail industry. So I joined a board, I judged awards, I volunteered, I spoke at conferences. And it all helped me stay connected to my industry, my people, while I built my confidence back up. And it actually ended up leading to some great consulting work, great connections and really opened doors I didn't expect.
Another thing, Renata pushed me to reach out to and organise three senior chats a month with people who were just a little more senior, a little more experienced than me, and this was an absolute game changer. It wasn't to pitch myself or ask for a job. I just reached out just asking for a quick coffee and if I could possibly pick their brain on career transition given their fascinating career.
And I just, I found that leaders at that level were very generously willing to share advice and these conversations turned out to be some of the most phenomenally rewarding of my whole journey. I got mentors, I got amazing advice and I did end up with a really great job offer. But I think all this job hunting stuff, the chats were definitely a bit daunting and uncomfortable to begin with. But it was the regular sessions with Renata that kept me accountable to the things that I would maybe sometimes avoid and she really did push me to do the hard and uncomfortable work and in the end it was completely worth it.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Peta, I love that there is so much gold in what you have just shared. And I'm hearing a lot about you there around discipline to keep course with the activities and the actions and the encouragement that, yes, absolutely, Renata was holding you accountable and then also you being quite disciplined in fronting into, it sounds like, what were some uncomfortable moments, but yet really rewarding.
Peta, if people are sitting here hesitating to invest in coaching as Renata said, because they think for some silly reason that they should be able to figure things out, what would you say to them?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Firstly, I totally get it, especially if you're used to being the one others come to for help. But honestly, it's one of the really important times in your career where it just makes sense to outsource and share your thinking with an expert.
I think when you're in between jobs, in transition, you're often feeling a bit vulnerable and not thinking clearly. You're probably also dealing with rejection and uncertainty and it can just make you feel a bit wobbly when you need to be showing up and communicating with real confidence and presence.
And I guess, yeah, for me, having a coach gave me real clarity and perspective and just a bit of structure to the whole job hunting process. And I think eventually some really good momentum. The accountability of having someone check whether I'd done my homework, my prep, what I said I was going to do, that was just so useful.
And it's not about being incapable, it's about recognising that you don't have to do all the hard stuff alone. And for me it was by far the best career investment I have ever made.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
That's wonderful. Thank you. Renata, I just want to talk about sort of formal education and where that sort of fits into this. If professionals were considering, for instance, an MBA, I'm often hearing that. How does that sit alongside career coaching or other forms of professional development and how do they decide when and if that's right for them?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Yeah, usually what I like to advise when people book me for a prospecting call, so they're not sure yet if they want to do coaching, they just want to get to know me and hear about how I coach clients. And they are also considering executive education. I tell them, ideally make sure that you have a long-term career plan before you overcapitalise on a very expensive program, right?
So what you want to do is to make sure that you know what your long-term career goal is, or if you have several, what are they? So that you can invest in the right executive education or whatever education, to lead you towards that goal. What I often find also is that if you are not employed, doing those executive education programs can be really expensive and it can add to the stress of not having a job and not having income.
So ideally, you want to make sure that you invest in expensive programs when you are employed, because usually your employer will be very open to having a conversation with you about splitting the cost or at least giving you study leave because they will benefit from you doing an MBA or an executive education as well.
So the other thing that I also am concerned about, is the fact that people don't understand that coaching is actually hard work. Not just for me, but for you. There's a reason why I charge it and I don't do it for free. It's hard work on both sides. So I'm your personal trainer, but you are my athlete and you need to go to the gym and work those muscles so that you're ready for the competition and doing a very taxing program, I have clients that have done Melbourne University or international MBAs that are really great on your curriculum, but they will be hard work for you. There are assignments that you need to do. Doing those two things at the same time can be too much.
And Donna, this is something that I learned from you when you came on The Job Hunting Podcast. I will never forget, you said something really important that I always tell my clients. The important thing is throughout your career, always crystallise what you've learned on the job with some sort of education to back it up. So if you're a project manager and you've been project managing for five years, but you don't have a certification, why not invest in that? Because if you ever lose your job, you have that to back up your experience. You said that on my podcast and I always tell that to my clients.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Thank you, Renata, you've got such a good memory. Peta, you are halfway through an MBA, I understand. How does that compliment your career coaching and coaching experience, and what advice would you give for somebody who's weighing up formal education versus coaching and some of the things that Renata has just touched on now?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
I think for me, coaching and the MBA serve really different purposes. The coaching helped me land a role. It was targeted, practical, very personal. Whereas the MBA gives me space to kind of stretch intellectually on topics that I've been doing for years. But instead connect with all the academic research and other executive leaders. And, tapping into the latest research and all the group work involved, I absolutely love it. It feels like I'm nurturing my brain. And I think there's also a part of me that wanted to prove to myself that I could do it since I dropped out of a business degree in my twenties. But in saying all that, I've actually had to pause my studies for now. Being a single mum of two and working in a big new role. I just want more time with my two girls and friends, and my garden. I'll go back to it. But for now, that is enough. And I've got to admit that Renata warned me about this.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Everything she just said.
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
She was right. She was totally right. So my advice is, if in doubt, get a career coach and talk to them about it first.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I completely understand that and good on you for making that call. Peta, can we switch now? I want to talk a little bit about leadership agility. What specific skills and mindsets and the shift in your mindset, did career coaching help you develop and how has that impacted you as a leader?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Career coaching really helped me sharpen my self-awareness. I'd always led with a lot of passion, but the modules and coaching that I did with Renata helped me get really clear on my values, my impact and better at telling my story. And all the practice that I was pushed into; pitching myself, interviewing, and networking. It's kind of a numbers game. You really do get better each time and that's been incredibly helpful in my new leadership role where you have to do a lot of pitching and a lot of storytelling on who you are, but also where you're trying to take the business and the future you're trying to build and rally people around. So that's one thing.
I think the other really big shift was helping me reframe failure. One of the lowest points in my career was discovering a payroll issue years ago at Lush and I carried so much shame around about it. But with Renata's coaching, I learned how to turn that experience into a really powerful story of values-led leadership and transparency and learning.
And that shift from failure being something that you hide and you carry around into something that demonstrates your values and who you are. That was really massive for me and now I really try and share that mindset around failure and shame with my teams. And as long as we're learning and evolving, it can be really powerful stuff.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
That's a really powerful story and I really appreciate you sharing that. When we think about leadership agility, and we often hear that coaching helps leaders become more adaptable and more agile - buzzword. Peta, do you believe coaching has helped you become a more agile leader? And if so, how?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Yeah absolutely. And I think it has to do with learning to sit in uncertainty without needing to solve everything immediately. I think coaching really did help me become just a lot more comfortable with ambiguity and start to trust in my ability to carve out the right path even when I don't have all the right answers.
And it also helped me adapt my leadership depending on context a lot more. When you go from a company like Lush to somewhere entirely different, like QBD, you really have to flex and the same playbook doesn't work everywhere. So coaching and prepping for new worlds helped me approach it with curiosity rather than feeling completely overwhelmed. And it definitely helped me adapt quicker and get better at building trust in new spaces.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Renata, interested in your thoughts?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Yeah I think that's wonderful. It's the first time I'm hearing this, so I'm like, I'm going through it in my mind, but I'm also thinking about it from a different perspective. Okay.
When you delegate to somebody else, something that you are not very comfortable with, in my case, looking for jobs and planning long term, your career. Okay? Those are not easy things to do. It doesn't come naturally to anybody. If it comes naturally to you, you are an outlier. Most people really struggle planning their careers long term and going for job opportunities and getting out of their comfort zone and applying for jobs.
But if you delegate that, then your brain rests. You take time off from worrying about this because you found somebody that can really support you in this. And there are so many good coaches out there. It's not just me. So you can find somebody that will really support you and then you can be much more agile in the things that you know you're good at.
So I always work with this assumption that all of my clients are absolutely amazing at what they do. I only work with very experienced professionals and senior executives, so they come to me with a lot of experience and I know that I'm there not to help them so much in their area of expertise, because I wouldn't know even how to begin. I'm there to help them manage their careers, take control of their careers and present themselves well, when they need to talk about their careers. So that's my goal. And I hope that by delegating that to me and trusting me with my support, that they can free up space in their brains to focus on their area of expertise.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
I love that, really reducing that mental load and mental clutter. Thank you. Ladies, we are just about to come towards the end of the podcast. And just a couple of final questions, if I may. And I can't thank you both enough for sharing some really personal and practical perspectives.
And Peta, maybe I'll start with you. Looking back, is there anything you would've done differently to this point in your career development journey?
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Honestly, I wouldn't change much. Even all the messy bits have taught me a lot. There's probably a few things that I wish I learned earlier.
I think firstly, don't wait until you're in crisis to ask for help. I think I spent too long thinking I had to figure it all out on my own before tapping into an expert like Renata. And I should have started networking more intentionally, earlier, while I was in a job. Not in a transactional way, but just in a curious way. Some of the best insights and breakthroughs came from conversations that had nothing to do with job offers, but just more to do with meeting new people in my industry and building connections and just tapping into the wisdom of others.
And actually one of the best pieces of advice I got from one of the senior chats I was talking about earlier. It was from Nicky Sparshott, she's the Global Head of Transformation at Unilever. And I know she won't mind me sharing her advice because she's just such an amazing advocate for women. But I was tossing up an offer and she recommended a final chat with my future boss to discuss two really key things with him. And she said she had done this every time she considered a new role. So firstly, she wanted me to sit him down and really chat out, what impact do you really want me to have? And then discuss what impact I really wanted to have in the role. And really chat out are they aligned enough? And she said, you don't need perfect alignment on this. Just enough alignment. And that we are both clear on any different aspirations we might have.
So that's the first thing. What do you want me to do? What do I want to do? And are we aligned enough? And then if there is enough alignment, will I have the resources, authority, and support to really achieve it? Now, that clarity at the very beginning made all the difference and ultimately led to my dream job now at QBD and ultimately I would not have had that conversation with Nicky without Renata pushing me to book my senior chats each month. Very grateful to Renata.
Yeah, I guess, my overall advice. Tap into experts like Renata when you need them. Build your network. And stay visible, especially when it feels uncomfortable because that's where all the really good stuff tends to happen.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
Thank you. That is such practical advice. And following this, I am going to go and book my monthly conversation with an expert in their area just to be curious and learn. That's pushed myself into my discomfort zone. Renata, what advice would you give job seekers or professionals who feel stuck in their careers, listening to this podcast right now?
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Alright, I have three things that I want to say. First of all, be kind to yourself. Okay? Recognise that your brain may be in survival mode. If you're struggling at the moment during a career transition, or you're very unhappy at your job, there is no way we can have four decade long careers without ups and downs.
That linearity is just so idealised and romanticised and it's not real, right? So be kind to yourself and maybe coaching can help you move out of that space. But the second thing I wanted to ask you is, don't wait until hit you hit rock bottom to reach out and explore what this could be like. Right? And you can start small. You don't have to overinvest in anything. It's important for you to maybe just book a one hour consultation or just buy a course or participate in group coaching. Start small, maybe test out a couple of different coaches and trust your instincts and go with the one that you think will work well with you.
And finally, I think it's important for us to remember that there are two different things that we often get confused. Courage and confidence. Okay? It's very hard to have confidence when you are in transition between jobs, when you want to apply for a job that is more advanced than the one that you have now, when you're moving countries, when you're moving industries. You don't have exactly confidence, but you need to have the courage to engage in conversations and networking and reposition yourself. It's courage. It's not confidence.
Donna Burr, Interim Executive Partner at Watermark Search International:
A powerful ending. That concludes our episode with Renata and Peta. We hope you found it motivating and inspiring for the year ahead. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast. I'd also like you to know that our most recent thought leadership pieces, which include the Interim Executive Survey and the Board Diversity Index are available on our website at www.watermarksearch.com.au.
Thank you for listening, and Renata and Peta, thank you so kindly for your insights, stories, vulnerability, sharing. Hugely pragmatic, and I'm sure everybody listening today will have had some great takeaways. Thank you both.
Renata Bernarde, Career Coach and Host of The Job Hunting Podcast:
Thank you, Peta. Thank you, Donna.
Peta Granger, Commercial Director at QBD Books:
Thanks ladies.