In this podcast episode, Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search specialising in health, human services and life sciences interviews Toby Hall. Toby is the former CEO of St. Vincent's Health Australia and Mission Australia as well as having a wide portfolio of Chair and Board roles including For Purpose Aged Care, Sana Health, UNICEF, Sterihealth, Working Links and Goodstart Early Learning.
Jocelyn and Toby have an engaging conversation covering topics including:
The key factors differentiating high performing Chief Executives and their leadership teams in Hospital, Health and Aged Care
Measuring the success of leaders and leadership teams working in this sector
How leaders can work on knowing themselves better
Listen to gain their insights and advice for current and future leaders.
You can also find the podcast on several different apps, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Breaker, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, and RadioPublic. Click here to listen & subscribe on your favourite app or read the transcript below.
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Mastering Leadership Agility: Lessons from a CEO and Board Director in Hospital, Health and Aged Care
Agile Leadership Lessons, Episode 6, transcript:
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Welcome to the Watermark Search International Agile Leadership Lessons podcast. My name is Jocelyn Santosa and I will be your host today. I'm a partner in our health, human services and life sciences practice. If this is your first time welcome. The Watermark team is made up of dedicated partners who have a long expertise in Board, Executive, and Interim Executive appointments. Our podcast invites highly regarded leaders in and we ask them questions in each episode to share their knowledge and expertise of agile leadership spanning public, private and not for profit settings. We ask them how they navigate different leadership challenges and their key lessons. Today's podcast is part one in a two part podcast. Joining me today is Toby Hall. Toby's had a varied and interesting career. Toby's most recent executive role was the Chief Executive Officer of St. Vincent's Health Australia, Australia's second largest health provider, delivering public and private hospital services, aged care and research activities. Prior to this, Toby was the Chief Executive Officer of Mission Australia, a national christian charity with a vision to end homelessness by providing safe and affordable housing, support disadvantaged children and families, empower troubled young people and assist those with a disability and mental illness. Toby has also been the chair of Sterihealth, the board member for Working Links, and a board member for Goodstart Early Learning. These days, Toby is the chair for For Purpose Aged Care, and the chair for Sana Health, and a board member advisory member for Fujitsu Australia and New Zealand and UNICEF. Toby is also a husband, father and grandfather. Welcome, Toby. Thank you for joining us.
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
Hey Jocelyn, it's great to be with you today.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
I'm really excited to have you here. There's a lot to talk about. I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is you have significant experience as a C suite executive and as a board member. And so, my first question for you is when you consider high performing Chief Executives and their leadership teams, what is it that differentiates them?
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
I think the first thing that you need from a Chief Executive, particularly, I think, in the health and welfare sector, is someone who is able to carry clearly a vision for the organisation, and articulate very clearly what the organisation's purpose is, what it's vision is, and where it's heading as an organisation and the sector as a whole. When you look at health and aged care it is predominantly about people. And when you're caring for people, you need to be able to articulate very clearly, what is the reason behind that? What is the purpose for it, and also to establish really clearly that this is a really high mandate, in terms of you are dealing with our most precious assets. And being able to articulate that clearly is the first thing I look for. The second thing I look for is people who actually have a really good understanding of themselves. I think people need to understand their strengths, and their weaknesses and be clearly able to articulate those. The reason for that is that when people are grounded enough to understand their skill base and what they're good at, and what they're not good at, they're then able to honestly assess themselves. And I sometimes find this is a an issue of CEOs that there is the kind of expectation when you're when you're younger is that CEOs have almost godlike person who's incredible at everything, knows every kind of facet of a business and can almost do anything, and they're kind of treated as superhuman. And the reality is, no one falls into that category or not any that I've met, yet. And where smart CEOs work is where they're able to understand their weaker points, and to be able to bring a team around them that fills in those weaker points. And I can give you an example of this. When I joined St. Vincent's Health Australia, which is an incredible organisation. The executive team had been working for probably four years trying to encourage the board perhaps cajole the board, push the board to do a range of new developments, which are absolutely need to grow St. Vincents and develop the organisation. And for four years they had tried very hard and yet failed completely to convince the board to implement any of the new projects they wanted to put in place. And when I looked at it, I studied the team and actually did some work around what are their strengths and weaknesses and it took two weeks ago through that process and identified that actually, none of our leadership team had influence skills, in terms of really as their strongest skill set in terms of being able to influence people to move in a certain direction to explain the core reason why you should move in a direction. And so, that had meant that while they had been trying to get something done, it wasn't working, because they hadn't really taken people on the journey. And in fact, it took a very short period of time to work with the board to explain the rationale behind the developments, which are actually pretty good. And to allow the board to engage and question the executives around development before the board actually approved several. And in fact, nearly 1.2 billion worth of projects were kind of implemented that have been stalled for four years. And understanding that gap is where great leadership teams work, where you can know what you're good at, and what you're not good at. Personally, I'm kind of, people who work with me know, I'm not crash hot on detail and good on vision, good on purpose and direction, but I need a great CFO around me who's going to hold the detail on the financials together. And admitting that doesn't phase me at all. And in fact, where you got a problem is where an executive team can't admit that. Then I believe, once you can get into that process, it is then a matter of allowing the people who are experts in their field to shine within a leadership team. And it's okay for people within the leadership team to step up and take leadership in certain parts of the organisation and good CEOs let that happen, in fact, encourage that to happen. The third area I really look at closely is just kind of the character of the individuals. And you'll kind of see every organisation talks about integrity. But you read the press, you'll find a lot of organisations don't necessarily practice integrity. So you do have to look really closely at people to just see who they are, how they shaped how they made up, how they think. And the predominant thing I look for actually in people is understanding what are their personal drivers and personal passions? Because that helps you see them as an individual as a person and understanding that I think is very helpful. And then get into the point of understanding, well how does this person operate culturally? How do they interact with others? And I look for a close connection with people. And that is vital in our sector, particularly, because you're dealing with vulnerable people. And so you need to be able to find people who connect well with others, engage well with others and have got a level of character. So those kinds of things to me, actually the kind of key things I search for when I'm looking at leadership teams.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, and I think you're right, you know, the connection in healthcare, it’s people. It's not widgets and it's the most vulnerable people. You talk about health care, and I might just extend that to health care and welfare and mental health and aged care. These sectors are really important sectors, they're evolving sectors. How do you measure the success of leaders and leadership teams working in this sector? What are the success factors or what are the metrics?
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
For me, I'm pretty simple in looking at metrics and a lot of people create lots of KPIs and complex metrics. I actually predominantly believe that if you look after the people you're caring for well, almost everything else will follow. From financial return to reputation to brand to organisational growth. But if you fail to look after the people you're there to care for, everything can fall apart fairly quickly. So my focus is always on not not so much what did my team think, but actually what are the people we're working with think of us and how do they receive the care that they are getting from us. And the interesting thing in our space, when you look at health and aged care, which is something the majority of us are going to need. We generally come to those services at a point of vulnerability. And it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire and we we cared for several billionaires at St. Vincent's, or a homeless person. In fact, one of the ironic things about St. Vincent's within 50 meters of each other in the hospital you'd have some of the poorest people in Australia alongside some of the wealthiest and when they come, they're all coming with a vulnerability. And understanding that and understanding where the person comes from is really important. And when I assessed that I spent a lot of time, particularly early on at St. Vincent's, trying to understand how do people perceive the organisation and how do people perceive they were being cared for. And what was actually really interesting at St. Vincent's, when I started there, was the majority of people actually gave very good feedback on St. Vincent's. They said it was a good organisation, they felt looked after they felt that the medical treatment they needed was delivered. But when we asked them about, did you feel cared for? Around 50% of people actually felt cared for when they came into our facilities. That's the kind of thing in the health space you have to look at in the aged care space, you have to look at in the welfare sector, you have to look at. Now the encouraging thing for St. Vincent's is, that was a better score than most people in the health sector were getting. But when you look at it and say, is that really where we want to be as an organisation whose job, existence, purpose is about caring for others? The answer, clearly not. And so we had to go through a journey of saying to our people, everyone's looking at you and saying you're highly competent, in terms of the care and the technical delivery of, of what's been done for people. So surgery's done? Successful. Big tick. And that's important, people care about that in the healthcare sector. Same in the aged care sector. Am I being looked after I'm even fed? Yes, big tick. Even the question of, Am I being treated with courtesy and respect? The answer that actually was? Big tick. Yes, I am. In fact, in terms of international benchmarks, the organisation was doing really well. But then, probably the most important thing, and the most important question to people was, did I feel cared for? And that was a kind of big cross. So we had to go through a journey of understanding how do we help people reexpress care. And one of the things which I think has been a failing, which you've seen across aged care, childcare and the health sector, is we professionalised the sectors and taken away the, the part that people went into the sectors for which they went into care for people. But we've created these professional barriers that say, well, actually, if I care too much, it might touch me personally. In fact, doctors and nurses and people in aged care are kind of trained not to get too close, not to care too much, because it would hurt them personally. And patients felt that. And fundamentally, we had to turn around and say, actually, that, that is just wrong education. Because what people predominantly want is they want to be cared for. And so we had to retrain and re give permission to people to care. And that is the number one thing you have to have in sectors of Human Services is the ability to care. And I'd even go as far as to say, to love the people you're serving. At the heart of it, that is what most people go into work in the sector for in the first place. And encouraging that, building that and training that, explaining how to start to use that part of your character as part of your job is a key thing, which makes a difference between great human services organisations and, and people who just are doing another job, and frankly, could almost be widgets coming in and out of that factory. And that's, that's not how it should be in Human Services.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, that's terrific, Toby. And you mentioned the three things that you look for vision, somebody knowing themselves and having character. If somebody say, for example, number two, they do know themselves or they don't know themselves, is there any advice that you would give to somebody who about maybe any of their blind spots, or how they how they can work on knowing themselves?
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
This will sound really tough Jocelyn, but one of the key things we have to do is we have to learn to get over ourselves. And, and just be free to admit how you're made as an individual, how you're shaped as an individual. And being free to accept that is something which really, is really, really important. And it's easy to kind of try and live up to others expectations of what you think other people want you to be as a CEO, as a CFO as a senior executive. And what tends to happen in that environment is people are striving really, really hard to be something that they aren't. And they work so hard at that, that they kind of lose who they are. And at that point, that's when you start to see some of these cultural issues happen in organisations, you start to see cultural failures, because people are so focused on acting, that it's kind of a point where it gets too hard to do that, and it falls apart. Whereas actually, if you can accept how you're made, what your talents are, and what your gifts are, and what your strengths are, it actually allows you to be who you are. And there's some great tools out there. And I, I'm a big fan of strengths finder, which is a brilliant tool in terms of helping people identify what are my personal strengths. And what that does is say very clearly, everyone has strengths in different fields. And my expectation, and I've been very lucky in my career to work with people from the phenominally challenged backgrounds, through the people of immense wealth. And in every case, I can say there are people, even people in the justice system, who we might, as a society kind of despise, who individually have strengths and talents. And I have yet to find anyone who doesn't have certain strengths within them. And how many people identify that and shine in that often creates confidence that maybe they didn't have before, and particularly in working with people who are unemployed. And we talked about that at Mission Australia, one of the things we tried to do with them is to shine a light on what are their strengths to allow them to focus on their strengths, because when people realise they've got areas they can be successful in often some of the things in life, which have been difficult start to kind of dissipate. And I kind of find that plays out, whether it's a senior executive, or someone who's unemployed, when they start to focus on their strengths, and really hone in on those, some of the things that they were weaker at seem to be less important. And so the confidence of the person builds, their skill set builds. And as they step into the areas of strength and focus on that more and more, they seem to shine more and more in their career. John Maxwell, he is an American leadership writer, talks about this kind of concept of moving into strengths. In fact, to the extent that his recommendations, people spend something like 80 / 90% of time focusing on their strengths, and only 10 to 15% of time focusing on their weaknesses. Now, this is really important from a leadership point of view, because it's counterintuitive. In fact, we we go through this performance management process for people, and largely performance management process goes like this, as a kind of pat on the back for the things that you did well, and then there's a list of things, actually, you didn't do very well that you need to improve. And often, some of those things may well be people skills that someone may never be able to improve on. Because they don't have the skill set to do it. Whereas you turn around, and actually said, let's focus on your strengths. Some of the time, those kind of weak areas just dissipate, because people are not focusing on them so much that they just focus on what they're really good at. And so I definitely believe that helping people to really look closely at their strengths, get over their kind of doubts about it, and to be happy to shine and where they're great. And to not do stuff they're not great at I think is good. And I share this a lot of leadership events. I'm terrible mechanically, like, I'm useless with cars. And so if my car breaks down, I'm just like, it's a disaster for me. And if I tried to fix it, I've probably ruined the car. So what do I do I take my car to a garage, and the guy's an expert fixes it in two minutes. I'm happy, he's getting paid, he's happy. That's everyone using your skill set really smartly. And it's that kind of thing we need to encourage people to do. We do it in normal life all the time - you call an expert. We just need to learn to do that in our workplaces as well.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, that's really good advice. I think. Applying your strengths, it also leads to a greater sense of satisfaction in your work, and you probably are in a state of flow where the work doesn't feel as hard either, if you're working to your strengths.
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
Yep, absolutely. And there's times for all of us, we have to, we do have to step into areas where we're less strong, we're less comfortable. And that's okay. And you have to do that. But the majority of time, if people can be in that process of working on the strengths you described, it really well isn't in fact, there's a great book on flow. The concept of having a natural flow works alongside strengths and when you're working that strengths face, things just work together. The organisation works seamlessly, the work you do is seamless and you've got this new level of comfort and you do feel like your inner stream can flow and it's all going well. And it's it's allowing people to step into that space, particularly in the executive space, I think really, really matters. And the thing is once your executive team get it and they do it with their teams, and they do it with their teams, and they do their teams. Suddenly, throughout the organisation, you've got all these people focusing on their strengths. And when you do that, you get a movement and change within an organisation, we often search for cultural change in organisations. But the heart of cultural change is actually people being better at being people. And if you can encourage that the culture automatically improves and developers.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Say that again, people being better at being people.
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
Yeah. So when when, when we look at our culture within organisations, we're effectively go through a process of saying, Well, if we want to change the culture, effectively, we're saying we're unhappy with what our people are doing. For whatever reason, might be some of the actions and might be some of their behaviors. So we're gonna do training programs on a specific thing. So we can just teach our customer service people to deal with customers better, then the cultural input. But actually, all you're doing is helping someone work out a better way of schmoozing the customer, which is like, maybe that's a good thing. But actually, if you help that customer service person be more comfortable themselves, more in design of who they are, accepting who they are, they're naturally able to deal with the customers more effectively. And they have a better relationship with the customer. And it's more effective as they engage with the customer. And they don't need to do a sales process. They actually are then been themselves and they've been in their natural zone, who they are, they kind of moved into a comfort with who they are. And so it's natural for them just to kind of talk with people and engage with people. And so you automatically get what you want. But it's not done as a technical skill base, it's actually helping you improve as a person, get better skills, as a person and be more capable yourself. And what flow then, is that naturally has better engagement with people. And actually, this is what we did with St. Vincent's is to actually tap into people to give them permission to care. And to actually say to them, we don't want to give you a technical skill, we're not going to tell you clever words to use with patients, we're not going to say every time you walk in, we've going to say, Thank you, Mrs. So and so. We actually just said, let's help you be more comfortable to be who you are and out of that will naturally flow that care that is within you. And so that is a permission giving thing to people to say, just accept who you are, accept how you operate, and shine within that. And the overflow from that is a very natural way of, of dealing with customers. And so the transition at St Vincents, in terms of engagement with patients was quite phenomenal. In fact, for the last three years of my term and St Vincents we took the score across the industry, by quite some way. In fact, I think we're top on eight out of the 12 indicators across the industry. And that was driven by a very simple program of helping people be able to care. And that was driven by a process of helping people to say, you're okay, as you are, who you are. And you came in into this industry to care, we're giving you permission to go care. And when that happened, the changes with engagement with patients happened automatically. And the thing which is exciting, even today, flowing forwards, I was talking to one of the directors there a couple of days ago, those numbers are still going up because people have become comfortable being able to do that. And it's a natural overflow of who they are. So, definitely focus on comfort with who you are, as a leader, stepped in your strengths, focusing on those acknowledging your weaknesses, and then getting into that, that flow and taking away the burden to try and be something you're not absolutely releases people that do brilliant stuff, culturally.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, that's those are exceptional results. And it allows people to, to be who they are. Do you have any examples of maybe where someone's had to be brave and say, you know, actually, maybe I'm not quite so good at this. And I'm, I'm sort of a square peg in a round hole. Do you have an example of that?
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
Yeah, I've definitely had that. I remember actually, I had a guy in New Zealand, who was an engineer who worked with me in local government. And he was a very, very good engineer. And he'd been put into a leadership position leading other engineers. And, and quite often, we're not very good at developing leaders, you kind of get a technical skill and then he gets promoted to be a leader and you kind of wake up one day and you've got 20 staff or 30 staff working for me expected to be able to work out oh, how do I lead them? And he basically became a leader and kind of his personality declined, let's say, and he wasn't quite as nice a guy as he used to be when he had leadership pressure on him. And in fact, it kind of got to the point where he he wasn't a very nice person to be around. He was on my leadership team. Not only was he not nice with his people, he wasn't nice with the people on the leadership team either. I have the kind of philosophy which my human resource colleagues don't necessarily like I, I put honesty in terms of dealing with people over process and law. And so I've always taken the view that where something is not working out, or there's an issue, it's much better to sit down with a person have a really honest conversation and say, Hey, what's going on here. So with that particular person, I've sat down, said, Look, I know you're a great engineer, but this just doesn't seem to be working. You know, it kind of it feels like you're grumpy with your colleagues and my perception, I might be wrong. And if I'm wrong, tell me feels like you're kind of grumpy with your staff. And again, you know, if I've got that wrong, please tell me. But let's talk about what's going on here. Anyway, in his case, he went ballistic when I did that. And he, he got grumpy with me, he told me what he thought of me, which wasn't very polite, which I know is very hard for any listener to believe. But that's, that's the reality of what happened. And I actually said to him look, I don't think it's working. So I think we need to think about what we do. And I think the best thing would be for you to probably move on from the organisation. And I'll help you on that journey, and find a way for you to move forward because I don't think it's, it's going to change. Anyway, he came to conclusion the next day that he would resign from the organisation. And then, a month later came to our leadership team and stood up and said, I just want to share something with everyone, because I think it's an important learning. He said, I got put into this leadership role. And I became something that I wasn't because I choose to be a really nice person, I enjoyed working my colleagues, I was a great engineer, and then got put into this leadership role. And it just did not work for me. Because it's just not my skill set. And I'm accepting, I'm a great engineer, I want to go back and do that. I'm really sorry to all of you who I've hurt in terms of the process, because I've been grumpy and unpleasant. And now I've actually looked in the mirror, I kind of realised I'm not even who I want to be. And that was an incredible realisation. And I could tell you another 20 stories of similar situations where people have just been completely outside their skill set. And one of the things about great leaders is finding a way to work with those people on their journey of change, and helping them find the right position to move to. And personally, I've always said, if you've got someone who is in that situation, it is almost invariably the organisation that has failed, not that person. Because the organisation has let them get to that position, the organisation has either promoted them into that position or accepted behavior that's not acceptable, and not gone through a process of honest discussion and change with the person. And so when when you can accept that, then you know that there's an onus on the organisation to work with them to say, Okay, well, if you do need to move on to something else, then a different role. That might be internally, that might need be externally. It might mean you need more training to be able to be successful, because some people in that situation, training would be the right thing to help them develop some different skills. But the organisation has to take ownership of that. And often organisations don't want to do that. And leaders don't want to do that. It's easy to blame the person, but actually, it's almost always the organisation, that let the person get into that situation. And so that the organisation is leaders need to front up and help them on the journey to what is next.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
Yeah, that's really interesting that you say it's the organisation that's failed and not the person because I think possibly most individuals are just going on a typical career path, you know, getting promoted getting to the getting to the next step. And the organisation has objectives that it wants to meet, you know, growing, you know, metrics, all those sorts of things.
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
And I think, just expand on that, and I'll go into the reality of some of the work in the health space. This will surprise some listeners, but culturally, things can become normalised. To the extent that no one blinks an eye at behavior, which is probably unacceptable, which someone who might come in from outside will look at and go and say, Wow, that's crazy. As an example, when I joined St Vincents, there were cases of surgeons who would throw, throw things across the theatre when things weren't going quite as well as they want. And I spent some time with our junior medical officers to understand how they were being treated culturally, because you kind of get a good feel for how the culture is when you talk to people right at the bottom of what is a hierarchical ladder. And I remember sitting down with one of the young female clinicians who was asked to put the protective shoes on her surgeon on the way into surgery. Which is a ludicrous thing to happen, anyone would look at that and go, that is just outrageous. But because it was normalised, he didn't know any different. And because he or she had seen other people throw things across a surgery, that that was kind of normal, it happened in health industry, and people accepted it. And then when someone comes along and says, you know, if you did that in a bank, you'd be out of a job, like literally that day. They look at you like, you're crazy, because the organisation has normalised behavior, which is, is not good. And everyone accepts it. And once that gets into the frame and the culture, and no one even challenges until some crazy person from outside comes in says to them, Hey, you know, that's not really normal. We need to find a way to change that. And even in that situation, people might turn around, say, well, the right answer is you got to discipline those people, you got to fix them, you got to change them. But the first thing you've actually got to do is that the organisation will let that behavior become normalised. And the organisation therefore has to take responsibility to say, we have to take those people through a journey to unnormalise bad behavior. And when you see, and particularly since the predominance of royal commissions, really looking at these cultural frames, with big banking, aged care sector, the disability sector, all of those organisations allowed bad behavior to become normal, because no one challenged it. And that was an organisational responsibility. It was a leadership responsibility. And the easy answer is like, well, let's just move all those people on. But actually, the real answer is actually, no, let's, let's help them unnormalise that behavior. Let's help create a new normalised behavior. And let's create an environment where people will accept high standards of engagement with one another and reject poor behavior. And I think organisations and leaders have to take ownership that they created the problem, therefore, they have to be the ones who fix it and work hard on fixing it rather than blaming individuals who maybe things have gone wrong with.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
What did you do in that situation?
Toby Hall, Chair, Director and Former CEO in Hospital, Health and Aged Care:
Where did she come from implemented a quite sophisticated anonymised system of reporting behavioral problems, and then a peer support program that worked alongside that. So rather than take a punitive approach, we said, where there's poor behavior, we'll go and talk to people, but use a colleague to talk to a person. So rather than, for instance, if something goes wrong, the CEO or HR can go and talk to a person and say, Oh, you did this thing wrong? We actually turned around and said, No, let's not do that. Let's get someone who's a colleague, to have some training in this area to go and talk with the person say, Hey, what's going on? And why is this behavior happening? And how do we go through the process of change? And usually, when people are confronted with behavior and talk about it, they're kind of like, oh, yeah, that's kind of that is just bad behavior. And so we put in place a system to allow that to happen. And obviously, in the case of really, really bad behavior, kind of, that got dealt with through human resource procedures. But in the case of some behavior, which, in some organisations would have been treated as really quite poor behavior, we actually put in place a peer support program to help people go through a journey of change. And that was phenomenally successful. And the nature of peers talking to peers about poor behavior meant that it wasn't about a disciplinary action. It was just about saying, how do we behave better and differently, and over a period of time slowly that the number of complaints or concerns reduced. I think the acceptance of dealing with complaints and concerns became more comfortable and people are then kind of moved into situation where it's okay to talk about some of these things more naturally, and to actually say well no, how do we become better? How do we create better aspiration together. What that highlighted is a need to have a culture shift, which was accepted by everyone in the organisation that we needed to journey together on this. And if a leadership team just kind of tried to ram through cultural change, like, you might get there, but it'd be painful. Whereas if the organisation owned the fact that it got it wrong, and everyone was working together to create organisational change, you suddenly had a momentum of lots of people working to create a better environment.
Jocelyn Santosa, Partner at Watermark Search International:
That concludes part one of my conversation with Toby Hall. I hope you'll join us for part two, which will be released shortly. I'd also like to let you know that our most recent thought leadership pieces, which include the 2023 Interim Executive Survey and our 2023 Board Diversity Index are available on www.watermarksearch.com.au. I hope you'll subscribe to our podcast. Thanks for listening.